Relationship Coach, Lori Frison joins us on this episode to discuss what it takes to have a successful relationship, transition to a coaching career, and how succeeding in both areas requires going inward!
Jaime White
Hello, and welcome to the Believe Crew podcast: The Business is You. I'm Jamie White, Founder of Believe Crew and your host, let's jump right in. I am so excited to have Lori joining me on the podcast today. I met Lori when we were both at an ICF meeting in Madison. And when I was looking to find a relationship coach to help someone else that was looking for relationship coaching. After connecting with Lori and seeing how she works with others, I wanted to just dive into her business a little bit, and learn more about her how she got here and what she's doing. So Lori, do you mind starting us off with a little bit about you and who you are?
Lori Frison
Sure, Jaime Great to be here, I became a relationship coach, I think mainly due to my own struggles in relationships, you know, that's kind of how it goes. And I really find a lot of meaning around helping people overcome their struggles and really connect to love and loving relationships. And when I say that, I mean both the love they have with themselves, but also with other people. Because I kind of see, that's not optional, we really need both. And, you know, I guess in my marriage, I've been married 29 years now. My husband and I had opposite attachment styles, I was anxious, and he was avoidant. So I would be basically, you know, pursuing him, and that was wildly uncomfortable for him. So he would pull away and then I would be like, hurt and disappointed. And then he would be more comfortable because now we'd have all this distance, and then he'd come back. And so anyway, we played this pattern over and over and over. And it was super frustrating, super hurtful. For me, and I'm sure not the most rewarding for him. And then, you know, through you know, as life does, it throws us some turning points and some new awarenesses. And I was a mental health therapist. And so you know, I kind of knew the game, I knew all the right words, I knew different theories and skills. But it was really a hard journey that I had to take to change my marriage. And that all came to light. One day, it was a turning point moment, when we had had a big fight. And I pulled out of the driveway and a hot fury of tears and name calling and ended up realizing in a new way in a visceral way that this was me. Everything else around me was at perfect peace. And I had relationship ideas that weren't working, the way I had been taught and what I experienced in relationships was not leading to the satisfaction and the secure love that I really, really wanted in my heart. And I needed to stop blaming him and stop thinking it was going to come from anywhere outside of me. So that was a real turning point moment. And I really, I really shifted the lens towards myself, what was it I had learned, what was it that was working wasn't working, what are my patterns and that's really where I got passionate, because, you know, because then in a really deeper way, I had bridged the gap, right, I had gone from sort of a messy, mediocre marriage to crossing over into really experiencing in a new way. What like how rich love could be, how secure it could feel, and how rewarding that can be so so I, I it brought me a lot of meaning to think of giving this to others and, and that's really, you know, where my, I think my mission when I when I think about what, what is it most I want to do with my time here on Earth, it really is about connecting people with love within themselves. And with each other like that just really lights me up.
Jaime White
Lori, this is awesome. And I there's so many things that you brought up just in that short introduction that I want to touch on and bring out more of and so one of them is also being in a marriage of over 20 Some years and it's not what I expected it to be in the beginning. And then having a book brought to my attention and really starting to learn about external validation and the things that I was maybe idolizing and I didn't have some of the you know, other idols that maybe other people are looking for. But then when I got to the idol of marriage, I was like, This is me. I've been idolizing this relationship and putting my expectation out there in a way that's not healthy, and instead of looking at myself, and I was also living in blame, like as soon as you said the word blame, total connection for me. And that is where I was keeping myself stuck. And I didn't know it. I, I kept wanting, you know him to be the leader in the family and in the relationship, but similar issue, he had more of an avoidance. And I was, you know, constantly looking for connection. And so, so many similarities in that, and I'm super thankful, just like you said about what can happen when I got to a place that was good. And then, you know, the way that the relationship could progress, and then for him to be able to realize and recognize that he now wanted to work on himself, which wasn't there before, you know, the longer I wanted him to work on him, it didn't happen. But then when I started to work on me, then he didn't want to be left behind. So there was so much there that you just really articulated very well, I'm very thankful for that. And then also you brought up about your experience in mental health coaching. And so I'm curious if you'll dig into, you know, what the transformation for you meant, in terms of why switch to coaching in a new way? And if you can just dig into any anything else that's coming up for you? That's great.
Lori Frison
Right? Yeah. So another thing that I have experienced with improving relationships, and I think it's a really key piece for all of us is that in secure relationships, when you have, you know, your energy's not being spent trying to, you know, fight, or there's blaming or upset emotions. And when you really have a secure base to work from, it's, it helps you fly, it helps you launch as you like, you're able to do things that maybe felt impossible before, I I don't know, you know how that works, I only know it works, I guess, is maybe just that piece of how we're all social creatures, and when we feel secure, or it gives us the strength or internal resources to really launch in any way. So, so my relationship had changed. And I felt secure in that base, which was part of it, I think, but at the same time, there was this growing unease and dissatisfaction with mental health counseling that I had been doing for over 20 years, and had been a wonderful career. A lot of good in it, but I loved coaching, like coaching at this positive focus, you know, and it was all about empowerment, and, and living your best life, which just got me super excited. And so spending time in sessions with people who weren't able to see that possibility, kind of took a toll. Like I just increasingly got, it got heavier and heavier. And eventually, I like, I just have to, I have to do this. I have to give this a try this calls to my heart. And, and I did. So I took the leap and opened a coaching practice. But it's been a lot of work, Jamie. So it wasn't like this easy, straight-line path where Oh, no, you know, now I'm a coach. And I just, it was a real learning and growth that I went through to really get to a point where now I feel like I'm solid. I'm a coach, I've got a good business, I'm working, I'm earning money. I'm I see the path. And although there's more growth I want, I think, yeah, I'm in a good place. And I think my identity has changed into stepping into that. I'm an inspired and effective coach, you know, that's a big change.
Jaime White
That's huge. So if you were to talk to another therapist that thinking about making this transition, because I have spoken to therapists, and there's something about the industry right now, that seems like it's draining, and maybe it's just, you know, the ones that I'm talking to because they're interested in coaching. So it could be that my lens is very small. But, you know, if you were to talk to a therapist that's interested in making that shift, and you're saying it's hard, what is it? I mean, is it time that they need Is it money, you know, what are the resources that they could plan for or think about that you didn't even know that you need it or what sort of that, you know, moment of like, wish I would have known this?
Unknown Speaker
Right? Well, there are a lot of little nuggets along the way that I wish I would have known but I think the biggest piece was that it's a transition. It's not a light switch. So I wasn't going to just one day, you know, like, go get a new job, I had to build a coaching practice and transition into it. It was, yeah, it was doing both in till the coaching practice grew enough. So I had to have a plan that allowed me to do that, which was the perfect way to do it. Because pressure off, right, I don't need a paycheck, I'm still learning money and, and that but then the second thing if I could share another thing that was really useful is that I had to grow, I had to become not only a coach, I had to grow in my comfort with being visible, and learning how to sell, which, in the end, I just decided I was connecting anyway. So I was good at that I could do that. And more deeply. Like, I can't lead anywhere, anyone anywhere, I haven't gone. So I had to really be clear, and goal-directed and all these things I was going to be working with other people to do. Yeah,
Jaime White
That's what yeah, that's what we love about Believe Crew is like the focus on experience-based coaching. Because ultimately, if you've walked the walk, like you can't take that experience away from someone, you know, what you've been through, somebody can't just say, Well, I'm gonna strip you of that. Now, this is mine, I own this. I've been through it. And, and that's why I feel like that's why the podcast is called the businesses, you and specifically in the coaching industry, I feel so much like we're in this amazing industry, because we get to continue to develop personally and grow ourselves so that we can turn around and help our clients. And the flip side of that is we have to develop, you know, at another level. So that's awesome that you've been feeling that stepping into that. And what are some of the books or mentors or, you know, coaching that you've done yourself? That sort of been really empowering for you personally?
Unknown Speaker
Great question. I've had so many Prosperous Coach was an inspiring book.
Jaime White
And by Rich Litman and Steve Chandler, I love that one the Propserous coach. Yeah,
Lori Frison
that's a good one that's
Lori Frison
inspiring. You know, I and I had, I think I knew coaching, like I had actually taken a run at this hill, Jamie, in 2008, I had done some coach training, I thought it was gonna, you know, put out a shingle and start my own business, but I really was not. Well, now, in hindsight, I would say I was not there yet in myself in my ability to do all the things that needed to happen. But it did prepare me for this time now. So I had the code training. So I really was looking for business development. And so I did B School. So through Marie Forleo, online learning program, and I did get my own coach, absolutely. I've had a couple of different coaches super helpful. There were a few funky experiences in that too, which, you know, is interesting, because I never expected that. But overall, I'd have to say I've been,
Jaime White
I've had to fire a coach. And I was like, this isn't where I expected to be. I had prepaid, I was all in. And then I realized it wasn't even worth my time. If I couldn't get my money back, it still wasn't even worth my time. And that was so painful. Like I have a utilitarian motivator, I, I want to value my resources, you know, and my time and money and I'd made that investment. And I love you know, one of the books that inspired me on this journey was the Four Agreements by Don Miguel Ruiz and living, you know, where I honor my word and living in integrity. And it was like I had made that commitment to that relationship, and then didn't know that it was going to turn out, you know, that it was a bad coaching experience. And so I was like, No, this is permission, Jamie, you're gonna have to fire a coach and find out what that's like. So, yeah, but something else that you had said about? So the business coaching business school, you know, hiring different coaches, but in 2008, you said that you had kind of were thinking about making a run at this hill already. Would you have been a relationship coach, if you would have started in 2008?
Unknown Speaker
No, but I think that's part of what was missing for me back in 2008. You know, coaching was just an itty bitty baby field at that time. So I there wasn't quite the same structure and support as there is now although I Um, yeah, I didn't have that in my identity, I didn't have that niche, as they say, you know, I didn't, I didn't feel solid, I was sort of trying to serve everyone. And that's just too broad. So my message was falling flat. It wasn't being heard, I didn't have the focus I needed. I didn't.
Jaime White
Yeah, so now, I mean, when you introduced yourself at the ICF group, and prior to that event, I had already had it in my head that someone I knew was looking for relationship coach, and we put it out there, you know, kind of like putting it out there in the world that, you know, if we meet the right person, that we'd be interested. And then when you said, I'm a relationship coach, right, the connection was made. And so it's so interesting how that niche, you know, like, we don't want to create niche. And like, when we want to help everybody, and yet it ends up that we help nobody, like, it's so frustrating that you get the opposite result of what you're trying to create. In the coaching world. Is that something that you experienced?
Lori Frison
Completely? Yeah, it was painful to let go. Of I want to serve everybody, but at the same time, oh, my gosh, was it a powerful shift? Because now not only do I have the people I serve, and the clarity, and I created a program to serve that specific population, but it was for me Jamie, like, I had the clarity, I had the messaging, I had the words and you know, the life experience that all just lined up.
Jaime White
I'm so excited for you. And hearing, it helps me connect the dots as well. Because when I first started to go into coaching, I was like, Okay, I know that there's so much power in one on one coaching. And I feel like I'm being called to this industry, but I love business, and I don't want to lose my business side. And I was like, I feel like I have to lose myself a little bit going into this coaching industry, because I love business. And so there was like, this messy mind going on. And even when I started learning and training and coaching, I knew it was in my future, but I didn't know how. And so I felt like this little dinghy in the ocean just being like, every time I'd see a new post on social media, or you know, meet someone new, it was like, oh, that's where, you know, ride the wave. That's where, no, I needed to be so grounded in myself that I wasn't being tossed around with every little wave that came along, or every new idea. And getting to the point where you're so grounded, that you can say this is my niche, this is who I am, and creating a program around that feels so different than you know, just, I don't know, there's so many, like you said the industry, you know, today compared to 2008. There's so many more resources. And yet, there's so many, there's also so many more distractions in a way because it's like build this course, do this make a million online tomorrow. I don't know if you're seeing any of that.
Lori Frison
You're on completely. Yeah, I'd say that was one of my challenges in the beginning, because I didn't know and I was looking to the internet. So your metaphor is awesome. Talk about you know, being in this little dingy in the ocean, even even online and learning how to build a coaching business. So much information out there. I'd say in the beginning, that would be one of the things I would make different is I was focused externally, trying to learn the things doing learning programs, reading books, and then mired in this mountain of tasks that always seem to take more time than I thought it would, you know, can you relate?
Jaime White
Oh my word, like totally relate? And, and sort of, you know, like, how would I have not done that? You know, like, how do you get grounded without knowing that's the thing, because, in a way, Laurie, what we're speaking to is that coaching is about who you are not what you do. And so much of life we think is about what we do. I mean as far as I was trained in school, I can what do I need to do to get the A? Not Who do I need to be in order to get the A and then when you transition a business, especially the business of coaching, it's like what do you mean who do I need to be? How would I do Will that get me there? So that's completely what I'm feeling
Lori Frison
Yeah 100% Yeah, it is about how you're being because all that work all that time all that effort all the website copy or the newsletters or you know, different tasks like that I was spending my time on which were bringing in no money by the way. They meant nothing. It was really when I started to be clear in who I was and what I was doing what I offered and connecting with people just being myself in that stepping into that role and connecting with people
Jaime White
when you were doing the first sales conversations, and how did your mouth feel? I don't know about you, but my tongue all of a sudden stuck to the roof of my mouth. I was like what happened? I mean, I love conversations and talking to people. But when it's like you get to that first sale pitch where you're like, did you have anything similar?
Lori Frison
Well, I had some coaching. Yes, I was very nervous, by the way, but I had some coaching around it, which was very helpful. Although she had sort of a polished script that she was giving us. And it wasn't me. It wasn't me. So not that there weren't pieces of that, that I couldn't use. But I found that. And there's a key piece, Jamie that I would say, in this process has been, I can take that information, whether it was the script from my coach and other sources, but I have to make it mine. So it's
Jaime White
100%.
Lori Frison
Yeah. So it was very nerve-wracking. I was like, basically studying for a phone call. I had all these different sessions with people super comfortable talking with people and meeting with people. But for this call, yeah, I needed some deodorant.
Jaime White
Love it. And what you're saying is really like getting to the point where you can trust your own intuition, knowing who you are. And knowing that even though this sales, this version of sales works for somebody else, really speaks to what you're talking about in relationships, like in order to get to that next level, or where they want to be in a relationship. Again, it comes back to who are you? And you know, can you trust yourself?
Lori Frison
Nice, nice connection? Yeah, it is. Great.
Jaime White
So then when you think about even Okay, so after the sales call, and then would you would look to do follow up? Was there any, anything there that ended up tripping you?
Unknown Speaker
Well, actually, so my first sales call was a nice guy, I feel so I felt so much compassion for him. And we had a great conversation and he was ready to sign. He was all in going to do this with me. And I didn't have him pay, write then and there. And then he never followed through. But he never responded to any of my emails, or any reach outs, nothing after that. And part of me was mad, like, you know, because my coaches saying, Oh, you need to do it right, then you need to get the credit card right then. And then I thought about it. And I'm like, You know what, no, that was a blessing. That was really a good lesson for me, because that's not how I am. And if someone doesn't really want to work with me enough, right, that you're gonna pay and sign a contract, then that's just not meant to be.
Jaime White
Right, right? The transformation that you're looking to create in people's lives or help them create, really, they need to be willing to do the work, and they need to be able to connect with you. I mean, coaching is like this super personal, personal business. So I love that, you know, and just that reminder, too, that, again, if we're being and we're trusting, and we're in that place of believing that this is where we're meant to be, then it will, it will work out, I love that my coach asked me she's like, but what if, what if it works out? What if it all works out?
Lori Frison
Great shift.
Jaime White
So when you think about the impact that you've been able to make now in lives, and again, you are making a difference in people's lives through the mental health field, how do you feel about the way that you're able to help people today in the transformation you're able to help people with,
Lori Frison
I find coaching so much more rewarding. It's an immediate feedback loop, you can see people having aha moments, making connections and deciding to take new action right there in the session with you as a result. I mean, people feel so incredibly grateful that, you know, they're like tears in their eyes, and they're saying, Thank you, thank you. I never saw this before or whatever, there's just that immediate, kind of aha, that takes place and, and lives change, because then they'll come back the next week. And it'll be, you know, hey, I was having this conversation with my dad. And, and I was freezing up again, and not going to speak up and, and I thought of this, and I got really angry. So I'm
Jaime White
getting chills thinking about it. And I totally, I mean, there's just been conversations where, you know, you have all of a sudden conversations are being had that hadn't been being had, you know, that people have been, Oh, love it.
Lori Frison
Yeah, it's growth, it's breakthroughs. And if you can see the transformation versus not that there isn't any of that in therapy and counseling, but usually, you know, with therapy, it's process-oriented rather than action-oriented. And so you don't, oh, it's a longer process.
Jaime White
So have you run into anyone today or if you have someone and come to you today that would have been like, say, a former client? Would you? What I'm asking is, if someone is considering mental health therapy or wondering if they need it, do you recommend them to somebody else? Or? Or is there a different direction that you would put, you know, recommend people go today?
Lori Frison
Are you asking for my for me personally? Would I give them mental health therapy?
Jaime White
I'm asking if you would still recommend mental health therapy today, personally, as well, as you know, just any in general,
Lori Frison
I see. Okay. There is definitely a place for mental health therapy, but there are certain things people need certain healing or integration or skills that they need to develop before they can really embrace what coaching has to offer. Yeah, that is, for sure it has its place. And sometimes that's the best medicine. But I do think as quickly as people are able to take ownership and not collapse into shame, but rather be like, Ah, okay, I see how I'm creating this and or, wait, I need the skill of fill in the blank, I need to learn how to do conflict resolution, or I need to learn how to manage my emotions. And they don't you know, it's not this shame-based experience of like, oh, no, see, I can't do it. You know, I, I try. I try to do the feeling thing, and I can't do it. You know what I mean? There's the distinction there. Yeah. Yeah. And so I guess I would have to say, that's the clearest line for me between a coaching client, a therapy client,
Jaime White
if there's mental health coaching, do you see that as being an opportunity that you would suggest or without knowing maybe, again, it probably depends on the coach itself. But, you know, we do some energy work and a lot of the work that we've done. And I say, we I include my husband and I, we have a podcast called the Business Addicts. And we talked about addiction, because my husband was a former addict. And so a lot of the work that I've done personally, yes, he was the problem. But it really doesn't matter that he was the problem, because I was an enabler. And I didn't know what an enabler was. And I didn't know that I was, you know, able to help myself first, and that we could get through it. So we've done the work without therapy. But I would say that it's been hypnotherapy, it's been mental health coaching, it's been energy work, you know, there's a lot of other healing maybe modalities is the word, is there anything else, you know, on that subject that you'd like to share with others?
Lori Frison
I would say that there's a ton of benefit to the coaching approach. And there are a large number of people in the world who might have mental health issues without a mental health diagnosis. And I don't even know if the diagnosis even is more for billing insurance than anything. So think of all the people in the world with anxiety. You know, it causes trouble for them in their lives, they might have challenges, taking action on the things that they need to do. So if coaching is something that's going to help them access, growth, or skills or capabilities. And absolutely, that it's an individual thing. And I would just echo what you're describing here is just massive amount of benefit to alternative therapies. That really what I have found, working as a mental health therapist was that it takes many years for the mental health field to sanction a new treatment that is kind of almost 20 years behind. Now, it's pretty well accepted that we need to include the body in any kind of trauma treatment, or you know, emotional processing or regulation, like the body's this huge source of information. And when I first started, that wasn't really all over the place that was not widely used. And now we have several body-based approaches or theories in mental health. So I'm a big fan, I think energy movement, movement, energy work, all the alternative theories. As a matter of fact, I trained as a shaman in shamanic practices for about seven years. And I loved it. It was so enriching.
Jaime White
Wow, that's awesome! Fun fact that we didn't know. And that's and that's helping you you know, like being able to bring all those things into coaching and have access to them and that's what the power of like One on one direct work with someone that's done the work. And being able to just, you know, in the coaching industry, you know, the negative and the positive is kind of all rolled into one, right? Like, the negative is you don't have to have a specific certificate to start as a coach, and you're not, you know, taking specific training all the time around whatever it is that your niches, but the flip side is that people can really dig into wherever they'd like to dig into. Right? So what is it for you going forward? Like, what would be amazing, cool, if it could be true in a couple of years from now, maybe three to five years from now?
Unknown Speaker
Well, my itty bitty baby dream is to have a nonprofit that makes self-love and self-acceptance clear and accessible to anybody who wants it like that it gets. So there are so many paths up the mountain. And that is dictated by the person who's looking, you know, the person who, who is seeking that for themselves. And I would love to be someone who just makes it extends love into the world. Through my work, yes, but also through connection and community. And having an organization that would just take all the mystery out of that. Because that's, that's where it begins Jamie with us. We are the filter we see the world through.
Jaime White
Yeah, and all of our perspectives around whether or not it's possible, and our belief systems, right. And what you spoke to really speaks to my heart in terms of a nonprofit that would help so many we had someone recently spend time with us, and she's broke, literally broke and doesn't have access to all the same resources that others do. And even my mom had access, you know, financially, she could have invested in anything she wanted. But coaching wasn't what it is today. And so, you know, this was 15 years ago, and she had tried so many different things to get help. And today, I think about, you know, the options that I'm aware of now, and I'm like, oh, let's try again. So I'm super thankful for that.
Lori Frison
So much good in in all of those things. It doesn't have to come any one way. Therapy, coaching, shamanic practices or energy healing, they all would refer calls to a person.
Jaime White
Right, right. And so is there anything else that you would like people to know about developing personally? Anything? When you think about the work that you do one on one with clients, is there anything that comes to mind that you would like to express?
Lori Frison
Yeah, well, my all-time favorite quote, is the only way out is in that whatever you're seeking in your life, turn your attention and energy towards yourself, looking inside for direction, because that's, that's your very best starting point. And with that said, The paradox is we need other people.
Jaime White
I love that
Lori Frison
we really can't do it alone. Like when we develop our core beliefs about ourself when we do it in relationships. So I didn't, I wasn't born into the world thinking I don't matter. I had some experiences in relationship that taught me and I took away the idea I don't matter, right? So that was in relationship that happened. And the exact same correction happens in relationship, I'm going to start expressing myself and have a new feedback loop with another person, they're going to respond to me in a way that gives me a new idea about myself. So we really can't do it alone. And whether that's a coach, or you know, we figure it out on our own and try new things and have a new experience. Whatever path you feel called to I do believe in those two pieces strongly.
Jaime White
Yeah, I love that, like that last piece of what you were saying is even if we're trying to do it alone, taking the action, that's gonna give us that feedback of like, oh, that didn't actually work. Or this does, you know, yes. And I love when I think about the coach that I had first. And he said to me, what is your self-talk? And I was like, Well, I thought it was good. But since you're asking me the question, maybe it's not. And there were things that I didn't realize were holding me back. I just, I didn't have the capacity, or the understanding to hear myself say things and even today, after doing this work that I've done, I don't always hear what I'm saying. But now my kids do and they're like, Mom, I think you have a belief around that. That's not mine. We can't get away with anything anymore. So yes, super healthy, it feels really good that they don't take it on, you know, because I didn't know, I didn't know that even what I was saying, you know, might be taken differently by somebody else. So, really good, really good stuff. Lori, I am so excited that we've had an opportunity to talk. And if people are looking for help specifically with you, how can they find you?
Lori Frison
Well, my website is my name www.lorifrison.com. That's L O R I because I know there are many ways to spell Lori. So that's sort of the portal to find out more about me. And there's a place to contact me through the website and I would love to start a conversation with anybody who's interested in coaching. Not high pressure just to connect around something I love.
Jaime White
Thank you so much for sharing time with me today and I cannot wait for others to hear your message.
Lori Frison
Thank you, Jamie. It's been a pleasure.